Posts by Cold Steel

7

TRUE PROPHETS IDENTIFIED!!!

by DATA-DOG in

the prophets of science fiction.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/prophets_of_science_fiction .

i just discovered this series on netflix.

it's pretty cool, fyi.. .

I always thought Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis were written by very talented writers. So what if English was the standard language used throughout the Universe? (That Rosetta Stone software really gets around.)

One of my favorite episodes of the former had them stargating to what appeared an engineering center. They set something off and when they recover they're wearing strange uniforms and are confronted by a very affable character who tells them he has made them "better." They manage to escape, but back on Earth they discover why they're stronger, faster and can make lightning calculations in their minds. It's that they've been turned into androids. They return to the planet, find their host and demand that he restore their weapons and their bodies. Alas, he tells them, that he cannot do. But finally they force him to where their bodies lie in stasis, only to make a more horrible discovery -- their bodies are already inhabited...by them!

In other words, their consciousness weren't just transferred to the android bodies, their entire minds had been xeroxed and placed in the new bodies. Ouch! So both sets of SG-1 members had identical memories and both thought of themselves as the originals. Oh, what to do? The androids wanted nothing more than to return to Earth and take up their regular lives, visit with their families and so forth. It raised some very interesting ethical issues, and also got me thinking that if Jehovah's Witnesses were destined to die, cease to exist, then be recreated in the resurrection, would they be the same people, or would they be merely xerox copies of the people they were, with the same thoughts and memories as the originals?

So science fiction has always raised some troublesome issues along with some hopeful ones. I personally believe we all have eternal spirits that transcend this life, before and after. But my grandmother, raised a Methodist, had a JW daughter who sent her JW articles on how when you die, you die, and it absolutely terrified her. Do we think of ourselves as having "off" and "on" switches, where the same circuit boards and memory modules exist, but can be powered off and on at will? Or are we created at birth, uncreated at death, then recreated at some future time? I've met many Jewish people who believe we're created at birth, then shut off at death and never have another conscious thought, and some of these have been rabbis. One said he "hoped" he would have some future life, but added that he wasn't counting on it.

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29

What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?

by Cold Steel in

when god breathed life into adam, adam became a living soul.

moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if youre a literalist.

now he was a complex living and breathing being.

Cold Steel

...the scientifically cherished Siberian Land Bridge theory....

Nevertheless...it's been completely and unequivocally discredited. But before it was discredited, every piece of evidence that ran counter to the Siberian Land Bridge Theory was automatically thrown out. And that included any and all evidence that supported the Book of Mormon. Thus, anyone (LDS or not) who criticized the theory was automatically ostracized.

Yeah, you know who ELSE poo-poohed the value of washing hands (as well as standard sanitary practices like washing dishes/pots/pans, utensils)? Jesus. You know who else didn't believe in germs, either? Jesus thought he was curing via forgiveness of sins, since Jesus lived in the age LONG before Pasteur's 'germ theory of disease', and that's what all humans believed.

How do you know he didn’t believe in germs or that he “poo-poohed” the value of washing hands? And what difference would it make whether he believed in them or not? Jesus wasn’t omniscient at the time he lived on Earth as a man. Remember when he spit into some dirt and put it on a blind man’s eyes? The man had been born blind, yet instead of giving him an eye infection, it restored his sight. The concept of germs came well before microscopes. The Greeks knew through experimentation that something was causing the breakdown of both fruit and flesh. But they could see nothing, so they theorized that the breakdown was being caused by something so small that they couldn’t see it.

And you’re correct about the correlation between healing and the forgiveness of sins. It’s not based on science but theology. As the Son of God, he had every right and power to forgive sins.

YOU claim God exists, so YOU have to present existence of God to convince skeptics. It's called "burden of proof," and believers bear it if they claim God exists.

Look, it’s not us who needs to prove it. I never said that I or anyone else had proof that God exists, but there is evidence. The scriptures are consistent, prophecy is spot on, and the Hebrew God unchanging and wise. The prophets give consistent testimonies and there are hundreds of near death experiences. When one considers the distance from the sun to the earth, the distance, mass and orbit of the moon (which many astronomers believe is foreign to both the earth and the solar system) and the complexities of life, you’re damn right it’s an “appeal to personal incredulity.” Like the Greeks who couldn’t see the germs, but who surmised they were there, I see God throughout the universe. Intelligence and order are invariably connected, and one cannot, in my view, exist without the other. Even given everything else in the solar system, if we didn’t have a stabilizing moon the precise distance and mass from the earth, intelligent life could not exist. Our tides would be erratic, our equator would change so often crops would not grow and our climate also would be erratic. And to think it all happened with a roll of the dice.

Regarding near death experiences, I have found no inconsistencies of experiences based on peoples’ belief systems. In fact, it’s just the opposite. Of course I don’t believe every account I read. Some are silly and entirely inconsistent with scripture. Like religion, people can just make things up, which is why there is the law of witnesses. But also like religion, the truth can be ferreted out.

Atheists can believe whatever they like. But they hijack every discussion of scripture and religion and turn it into an attack on religion.

This thread was about how Jehovah’s Witnesses and other soul sleepers would react to finding out that their consciousness continued after death. Suddenly we’re treated with their opinions about religion in general, the Book of Mormon, how ridiculous and unbelievable, and unconvincing all spiritual belief systems (except their own, naturally) were and how noble and honest science has been through the ages in searching out the truth while they have been persecuted by exposing the fables of religion. The truth is, science has about two whores less than Babylon had in its heyday. Just look at how many threads the atheists have derailed here. Some hurl just one or two lines of insult (hi, Cofty!) while others insult in greater detail. Then there are those who see Mormonism and the Jehovah’s Witnesses as being equally as bizarre and ridiculous, so differences in doctrine are merely the topics of fools and the gullible. And what bothers them the most, I think, are former Jehovah’s Witnesses who remain Christians and who find more productive spiritual pursuits than the bitter path they themselves tread.

(And BTW, I don’t have anything against atheists believing as they do; I am just stunned at times about the surety of their convictions, which is very similar to the surety that exists among the religiously-minded.)

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5

Why do we age and die?

by yalbmert99 in

why do we age and die?.

not because of original sin in the garden of eden, because adam and eve and the forbidden fruit never existed.

it's rather because of entropy.. see this video here that explains it simply :.

Cold Steel

Yes, it's all explained here in this brilliant piece called:

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The Last Question..by Isaac Asimov

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29

What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?

by Cold Steel in

when god breathed life into adam, adam became a living soul.

moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if youre a literalist.

now he was a complex living and breathing being.

Cold Steel

Qcmbr: How do you react...when we show you Mormon lies, logic errors, immorality and proof of the fraudulent nature of the Book of Mormon?

Cofty: He sticks his fingers in his ears, sings lalalalala, and types lots of text that includes the oxymoron "mormon scholars..."

That’s about it, only I sing “Wake Up, Little Suzie” really loud.

AndDon’tCallMeShirley: ....you criticize Jehovah's Witnesses for their beliefs...you are a Mormon. You seem to not realize you believe in fictions just as absurd and unprovable as the Jehovah’s Witnesses—yet you stand here in judgment of them. On what basis?

So...am I the only critic here? Actually, it seems most of the threads on this board criticize the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And the atheists here are the most critical of everyone.

But though my beliefs differ from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, my primary criticisms deal with their policies. But many of my threads are on scriptural topics, like the state of the dead, prophecy, the fall of man, the atonement, the Second Coming and everyone’s favorite, the battle of Armageddon. So it gets down to the “Two Es” — exegeses and eschatology. To the atheists, this is all nitpicking since, to them, one religious doctrine is as ridiculous as another.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe, as I understand it, that when one dies, he or she ceases to exist, as if they never existed. They also teach that the wicked will be resurrected, judged, then obliterated, whilst the righteous are resurrected as either spirits or as immortal humans, like Adam and Eve.

At least atheists and others freely admit that certain matters do not have an answer, but rather than believe in fairy tales, they rely on evidence to formulate opinions, and reserve themselves until evidence proves their position wrong. The gullibly religious seem to latch onto any nonsense that makes them feel good—no evidence required—while condemning other gullibly religious people who believe in a different color of unprovable, but equally laughable, set of absurdities.

Your self-assured arrogance is astounding.

My greatest problem with atheists is their stunning hypocrisy and unyielding inability to see what they accuse others of in themselves. My God, you should see yourself from my side of the computer screen! Talk about arrogance! You speak as though science has settled every problem and has slammed the door shut once and for all without question on every religion and religious experience in the history of mankind—all the while conveniently overlooking its own flawed, narrow and sordid past with an astonishing presumptuousness that has existed on the parts of pseudo-intellectuals going all the way back to the ancient Greek philosophers and before. And you have the audacity to call me arrogant?

I’ve never claimed that religion has all the answers, but it’s a belief system in many ways just as science is. For generations scientists and humanists of all stripes have had their own little cliques in which those outside of their belief systems were ridiculed and, if possible, excluded from their ranks. Look at those who were derided for their belief in continental drift (which anyone with a global map could figure out) and their questioning of the scientifically cherished Siberian Land Bridge theory, which excluded every piece of evidence that backed up the claims of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. So please don’t tell me how impartial, dispassionate and fair science is and how narrow minded and bigoted religion is. You may say you don’t believe in God nor revealed religion, but to say you know there’s no validity to it is, itself, the basest of belief systems.

RottenRiley: Jehovah's Witnesses don't know the Christ of the Bibles are do they believe in the Jesus Christ and Good News taught by the Apostles. Their claim is "If I die, I am a Christian because I believed in Jesus Christ" but they don't believe in Jesus Christ do they?

They say they do, but I don’t believe people are saved or damned on just what they believe. John writes:

We see here not just an emphasis on believing in Christ, but in living his commandments. The one aspect of religion that bothers me the most is the exclusivity of sects and religions that damn, or condemn, everyone but themselves. If Christianity is to reflect the love of God and the brotherhood of men, then all the condemnation to hell or destruction has to give way to acknowledging God as loving, just and merciful. Jehovah will destroy everyone but his witnesses, we’re told, or, if we believe the Seventh Day Adventists, anyone who does not embrace seventh-day worship. In my view, if religions would try to be more inclusive, not of the wicked, but of those who truly love and revere both the Father and the Son, they would be on the right track.

Based on my reading of near death experiences, and the writings of the New Testament and other writings of its time, I couldn’t help but wonder what the reaction of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists (or atheists) would be to be cut off in this life, only to find themselves continuing in existence in real time?

When you were an active JW, or if you’re presently a believing JW, what would be your reaction to discovering, suddenly, that the spirit lives on? And what would happen if a Jehovah’s Witness were to have a near death experience, recover and tell it to friends or the elders in their congregations? Have such experiences ever been written about in WTBTS publications?

My dad told us before he died that he had seen and spoken to his mother (and he wasn’t an overly religious type, playing his religion very close to the vest). And my maternal grandfather also said, prior to his death, that he had seen and spoken to friends and family, including his mother and father). I don’t know just what his religious views were exactly when he passed, but he had been attending a Kingdom Hall every Wednesday evening, dressing up for it and taking his Bible. Just moments before he died, he raised up on his left elbow and pointed with his right finger towards the edge of his bed, as if whoever he was looking at was/were standing above the floor. He was very emphatic, but wasn’t able to say anything. But I take such things seriously.

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29

What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?

by Cold Steel in

when god breathed life into adam, adam became a living soul.

moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if youre a literalist.

now he was a complex living and breathing being.

Cold Steel

Christopher Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

At one time, no one believed in germs; and when they couldn't deny it, they argued they were far too small to harm the human body. People were booted out of the medical profession for requiring their hospital staff to wash their hands! Much of astrophysics today is founded on a belief in dark matter, though evidence that it exists is sadly lacking. The same thing used to be true of black holes. Even though they were theoretically possible, Stephen Hawking said years ago, he doubted whether any would be found. Before the ink was dry, however, astronomers had begun to find them; not that they actually saw them, but they were able to prove they existed and determine where they were. Now we know they're all over the place.

To say there is no evidence of God, or a Creator, is a pretty huge leap. And the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. The complexity of genetic codes, order and beauty of the universe, the witnesses throughout time, many of the prophets have stated that all things denote there is a God. I've found that many of the near death experiences I've read to be very compelling, regardless of their religious and cultural backgrounds. But as many have pointed out, if atheists are correct, we'll never know it; however, if religionists are right, we all know there's a God after about two minutes.

Jehovah's Witnesses are sure that when they die, they will find themselves coming to in the future. They're not exactly sure what they'll see or experience, but I suspect most will believe it will be right at the onset of the battle of Armageddon. But they'll be conscious and aware of their own existence and, good or evil, will have a full recollection of their memories. The scriptures say that all men will be resurrected, male and female. The JWs add to that doctrine that the evil ones will be resurrected, judged and destroyed, all *POOF*.

29

What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?

by Cold Steel in

when god breathed life into adam, adam became a living soul.

moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if youre a literalist.

now he was a complex living and breathing being.

Cold Steel

When God breathed life into Adam, Adam became a living soul. Moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if you’re a literalist. Now he was a complex living and breathing being. A son of God. At least that’s how the Jehovah’s Witnesses see it.

In school, one of my courses was Christian eschatology in light of newly discovered papyri. We covered the whole soul sleeping doctrine as taught by William Miller, Ellen G. White and Charles T. Russell. Far from being an ancient Greek heresy, as the Adventists claim, there was a solid belief amongst ancient Hebrew and Christian leaders that man not only had an immortal soul, but many early Jewish and Christian writers believed that man’s immortality goes in both directions, into the present and future, but also into the past. One scholar writes:

Christ's premortal existence, however different Christians interpret this concept, is well attested in the New Testament.8 The concept of individual premortal existence of humans is not clearly attested in texts in the biblical tradition until the last few centuries BC on into the early Christian centuries. Examples found in some early Jewish and Christian documents include:

As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body. (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19–20)9

But he [God] did design and devise me [Moses], who (was) prepared from the beginning of the world, to be the mediator of his covenant. (Testament of Moses 1:14)10

Enoch was instructed that "all the souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth." (2 Enoch 23:5; see further 1 Enoch 48:2–3)11

Such attestations of this concept in early Jewish and Christian texts are regularly cited as dependent on Greek influence, especially Platonic thought. For example, "the Platonic view of the soul as pre-existent seems to be reflected here [in Wisdom of Solomon 8:19–20], but unlike Plato's view, there is union with an undefiled body."12

8. See ... Douglas McCready, He Came Down from Heaven: The Preexistence of Christ and the Christian Faith (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2005).

9. NRSV Apocrypha, as found in The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books, ed. Bruce M. Metzger and Roland E. Murphy (New York: Oxford, 1994), AP 68.

10. As found in James H. Charlesworth, ed., The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (New York: Doubleday, 1983, 1985), 1:927; hereafter abbreviated OTP.

11. As found in OTP, 1:140.

12. Note on Wisdom of Solomon 8:19–20, in New Annotated Oxford Bible, AP 68, emphasis in the original.

If other Christians are correct in their scriptural exegeses, and if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, what would your reaction be to die and suddenly find that you were still alive and conscious? What do you think most Jehovah’s Witnesses would do? In the stories I’ve read, a person dies, then finds themselves in Paradise (if righteous), feeling intense peace and well being. They also frequently see their own bodies, either on the floor or in a bed or stretcher.

So if this happened, how do you think most Jehovah’s Witnesses would react, seeing that this, one of their premier doctrines, was false? How would you react? Would most Jehovah’s Witnesses despair or would they continue to maintain their beliefs in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

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35

We Pray For The Governing Body...

by jw07 in

at the meetings i've noticed over the past 2 years or so brothers asking for 'special blessings' for the governing body.

it was everyonce in a while at first.

now it is almost at every single meeting!

Cold Steel

The egos began to bloat when the comparisons to the ancient Quorum of the Twelve Apostles began. The Governing Body wasn't always an administrative body whose edicts were the law. Many apparently continue in the homey, easy style you'd expect from a neighbor or friend.

As people like this visit congregations, it doesn't help when people begin fawning over them and treating them with almost sickening deference. Many of the elders, from what I've heard, have taken their cue from the GB. If the GB doesn't interfere with them, and sustains them behind the scene, both prosper. The GB gets the power and the elders are free to tighten the grip on whomever they see fit. As it's been reported here, they interfere with the way you raise your families, how you conduct your business, what you do after high school, the types of places you visit in the neighborhood, such as home sales -- they can even determine what you can and cannot read and what you can and cannot display in your homes.

To my mind, the greatest problem among those affiliated with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is that it doesn't consider itself a church. Why? If one reads the New Testament, it is full of references to the Church. There are local churches that, together, make up the entire Church; and the apostles and other writers make it exceedingly clear that there is a church, and that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. If Jesus is the archangel Michael, then Michael is the head of the church (which I don't buy for a moment). We also know the church had officers in it, amongst whom were apostles, bishops, teachers, deacons, priests, evangelists, seventy and elders. If we say that modern Governing Body members=Apostles, and Overseers=Bishops, and Elders=Elders, then what of the Priests, Deacons and Seventy? And if the WBTS isn't a church; if it isn't the Church, then where is the Church? And why has God chosen an organization headed by Jehovah and not Jesus Christ?

To see the sanctity and the relationship that existed between Christ and the Church, take a careful look at Ephesians 5. Then, if you can, explain how the Jehovah's Witnesses correlate to it as an organization. Is it the church, or is it a placeholder until the Church is restored to the earth?

Christ is the head of the Church, and the Church is subject to Christ. Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it so that he might present it to himself "a glorious Church" without spot or blemish. How is what the Governing Body is doing will result in that type of Church, wherever it is?

Clearly the WTBTS considers its members to be witnesses of Yahweh, not the Church of Jesus Christ. And that's a huge problem. Where do they get their ministerial authority? Who told them to organize and how to organize? Jesus told his apostles, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit; and that your fruit should remain; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." (John 15:16) Does this fit the description of the mission given to the Governing Body? No, because the GB sees itself as the "faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24 -- not bringing forth fruit, but rather, those " whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season." Just how the Lord made the GB the "ruler over his household" has never, to my knowledge, been explained. How do they know the Lord did this, and who is the Lord? Christ, or the Father?

The GB was more theologically viable as a consulting body than an administrative body. I think many active Jehovah's Witnesses know this; but for them it's a leap of faith...quite a leap at that!

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7

TRUE PROPHETS IDENTIFIED!!!

by DATA-DOG in

the prophets of science fiction.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/prophets_of_science_fiction .

i just discovered this series on netflix.

it's pretty cool, fyi.. .

Cold Steel

Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi writer, had a great sense of humor. I still remember this gem from years ago:

The Prime of Life

It was, in truth, an eager youth
Who halted me one day.
He gazed in bliss at me, and this
Is what he had to say:

“Why, mazel tov, it’s Asimov,
A blessing on your head!
For many a year, I’ve lived in fear
That you were long since dead.
Or if alive, one fifty-five
Cold years had passed you by,
And left you weak, with poor physique,
Thin hair and rheumy eye.
For sure enough, I’ve read your stuff
Since I was but a lad
And couldn’t spell or hardly tell
The good yarns from the bad.
My Father, too, was reading you
Before he met my Ma.
For you he yearned, once he had learned
About you from his Pa.
Since time began, you wondrous man,
My ancestors did love
That SF dean and writing machine
The aged Asimov.”

I’d had my fill. I said, “Be still!
I’ve kept my old-time spark.
My step is light, my eye is bright,
My hair is thick and dark.”

His smile, in brief, spelled disbelief,
So this is what I did;
I scowled, you know, and with one blow,
I killed that rotten kid.

6

Individual Governing Body Members

by lambsbottom in

after watching morris' rant, was thinking about how weak these religious men are.

think about it: they are scared to put any of their hardcore beliefs (e.g.

higher education is bad and dangerous, clothing standards, ect.

Cold Steel

They're either deluded, deceived or are themselves deceitful, and I don't know whether Franz ever addessed what GB members see when they look in the mirror.

Anciently, God spoke to his apostles and prophets through theophanies and angelic visitations. I would love to see the looks on peoples' faces attending a major conference during which a GB member got up and said he had been visited by an angel like John did on Patmos. Or what if one of them had a dream or vision? I wonder how many people who had left the Society would change their minds and put in for reinstatement if there was such an announcement?

Imagine if one day Gerrit Lösch got up to speak at a major convention. "My friends and brethren, for many years we have known we live in precarious times. We see the combined efforts of Satan the Devil and his angels of demons have fought Jehovah and his earthly organization and that they have increased their stride in bringing us closer to Armageddon. As the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society, we have often found that some of our decisions and statements have angered some. Such it was with the first century of Jehovah's Christians.

Anciently, the apostles, the Governing Body of its time, struggled with their own problems, and when certain issues became overwhelming, God answered their prayers through angelic ministrations. The apostles weren't perfect, my friends, and neither are we. Like anyone else we make mistakes. Well, I'm here today to tell you that last Wednesday, before our weekly meeting, I was preparing some notes regarding our continuing expectation for the coming of Armageddon. As I was checking my points, I suddenly noticed a man standing by my side. He looked as real as you or I do right now, but he was dressed in a white robe, with hair of the most lusterous white. He stood beside me just a little above the ground. He had a sparkle in his eye and I instantly recognized him as Brother Charles Taze Russell. He called me by name and put his hand upon my shoulder, and when he did so, I was completely surrounded and enveloped by understanding. I saw the beast of whom John wrote, and that he came upon this people to destroy them. Some of the wicked fell by the sword of the beast, but the more part of the people stood on their feet and resisted the dragon. Fire fell from the sky with stones that weren't hail, but rather, from the void of the heavens. It was as if one day the people of the earth were conducting their business as ususal and then, suddenly, chaos reigned! And in the midst of this chaos, I saw Jehovah's people rise into the air, and no stone could impede them, nor could the fire hurt them. And yet there were many who, for varying reasons, had left our ranks and were destroyed where they stood, their eyes and tongues being burned within them as by a strong acid. Still there were others who were spared for reasons I was not given to understand.

"When the vision departed, I found myself in my room with Elder Russell, who began to slowly ascend through the ceiling. As he did so, he told me he would visit me again; that the day of Armageddon was nigh, and that the date thereof was only known by Jehovah and that it would come not one day sooner or one day later. When I could no longer see him, I was left weak and powerless. Yet I remembered everything he had related. Subsequently, I had visitations from three of the Lord's ancient followers, Peter, Paul and Mary. I see that my time is up, so I will go into more detail later. Farewell."

If something like that happened, it might invigorate the organization.

The First Resurrection Now Under Way?

Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at Revelation 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory.* (Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4)

John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward. What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.

Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?* For information on how we know that the 24 elders represent anointed Christians in their heavenly position, see Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 77, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The real reason why this is important, is nothing to do with 1935 — it has to do with the demotion of the anointed to a group with “no special insight” and the promotion (or reaffirmation) of the Governing Body to having inside info from the dead!

Communication with the dead has always been a part of the Watchtower religion:

Clayton Woodworth claimed that Pastor Russell was still directing the Watchtower Society from beyond the grave:

“Pastor Russell was a man of unusual modesty. Great men usually are modest. The examination of the contents of this book will disclose the fact ... that the earthly creature made prominent therein above all others is the messenger of the Laodicean Church — ‘that wise and faithful servant of the Lord’ — CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL.

“...[T]hough Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work. ‘The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as His channel through which to make known the Glad Tiding.’” (Finished Mystery, 1917, pp. 5, 144). [Source]

One reader asked, "Why is it such a stretch to believe that Jehovah is using angels nowadays? Or that the head of the Christian congregation, Jesus, might be using resurrected holy ones?" Darn good question.

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22

Get out of her My People.. Jeremiah 51:45 / Revelation 18:4

by objectivetruth in

for any christians, i'd like to get your opinion.. i believe that all organized religions are a part of babylon the great.

this includes the jw organization, in my opinion.. what do you feel is required to "get out of her"?would disasociation / disfellowshipment be appropriate?if one chose not to dissasociate himself, would it be wrong to still attend meetings with the hope of turning some to the bible?when jesus speaks of the scribes & pharisees do you feel that these could be compared to the elders or the gb?if the scribes and pharisees are among the religions of babylon the great, what would be the signifigance of jesus words at matther 23:2,3?

" "2the scribes and the pharisees sit on moses seat, 3so practice and observe whatever they tell youbut not what they do.

Cold Steel

ObjectiveTruth:

What do you feel is Required to “Get Out of Her”?

It meant, in one context, that the Christians of his day were to separate themselves from the Jewish nation, which was under condemnation. For general counsel, it means to withdraw one’s self from the world and its wickedness. There are many things in our society that are perfectly legal, but which have dire moral implications and consequences. We must separate ourselves from the world’s sense of morality and ethics and embrace those that have been given us by God and his prophets.

Would Disassociation/Disfellowshiping be Appropriate?

Appropriate for what? Getting out of a false religion? Not really. If the WTS has no authority from God, then membership is just a figment. It's just a meaningless piece of paper which you can ignore.

If one chose not to Disassociate himself, would it be Wrong to still Attend Meetings with the hope of Turning some to the Bible?

God has no commandments on which churches you can attend or not attend (otherwise, how could anyone discover the truth?). Not attending the church of your choice is a stipulation that only false religions impose. Naturally this would not include cults that engage in ritual human sacrifice, Satanism and the like. But the Lord expects people to search for truth, and you can’t do that by staying away from all religious sects. If your purpose is to attend Kingdom Halls in the hopes of bringing people out, that would be a bit dicey. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for destroying someone’s faith, having them lose their wife and children or turning them to atheism. As strange as it seems, some Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually happy in their faith. I don’t believe for an instant that Jehovah’s Witnesses go to an everlasting Hell because they happen to belong to the wrong church.

When Jesus Speaks of the Scribes & Pharisees do you feel that these could be Compared to the Elders or the GB?

Or any other corrupt body of false priests or religious leaders who have corrupt understandings of the scriptures. It’s a case of the blind leading the blind, and it’s the overarching problem in the entire religious world, of which the Jehovah’s Witnesses Governing Body is only a tiny part. In other words, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society isn’t the creation of God that fell into apostasy; it never was anything other than a false religion. I’ve always wondered if they’ve individually ever doubted their own legitimacy and callings. Or do the words they hear in their minds convince them it’s of the Holy Spirit.

If the Scribes and Pharisees are among the Religions of Babylon the Great, what would be the Significance of Jesus’ Words at Matthew 3:2,3?” 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.”

I’m not sure that Jesus viewed them in the context of being one of the false religions of Babylon. In fact, if anything, he was respecting the authority of their office, but also saw the corruption in their hearts. As a result, to be absolutely blameless before the Father, he had to be respectful of the “seat of Moses,” and the authority of the Romans. He couldn’t be a rabble rouser, and everything he did had to be done in obedience to those in authority, both theologically and politically. If it weren’t so, he could not have been guiltless when he was put to death.

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